The Ideal Mouse WishList

Are you thinking of Better Touch Tool that allows almost unlimited configuration of mouse touchpad.

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I’m pretty sure that’s it. Thanks.

I guess I’ll weigh in on this topic. I got a track pad with my new iMac. After a week or so, my forearm began to hurt. I switched back to my Evoluent vertical mouse https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00427TAIK, and the soreness went away. The track pad required holding my hand horizontally and trying for precise movement. The vertical mouse is very comfortable to use because my hand is in a more natural position.

I realize that I hold my hands horizontally to type. That doesn’t seem to bother me; perhaps because I move my hands more when typing than when mousing. I have never felt comfortable using a split keyboard perhaps because I cross over from one side to the other occasionally. The TB will be a new experience for me that I hope to adapt to quickly.

Along the lines of the vertical mouse, I wonder if some variation of the TB could be created that would have the key blades not flat. For desktop use, the bulk of a stand holding the TB parts slanted would be acceptable. [WayTools: please don’t even think about this till after GR.]

MojaveTom - is forearm pain reduction the primary incentive for your vertical mouse?

Besides the forearm pain, do you have any other wrist / hand / finger pain or RSI with your current setup?

Thanks for info, it’s helpful to shape our follow-on product plans.

Less arm, hand, and finger stress is one of the primary goals for our new mouse tech.

We’ve measured significant ergonomic improvement for typing with TextBlade vs. legacy keyboards. Goal is to achieve parallel advances for mice.

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The Evoluent mouse has a good form factor, but it’s so heavy. And I don’t like the chrome-finish thumb rest. I don’t know why they chose that but my thumb sweats when it’s resting on it. My favorite vertical mouse is the original Anker vertical mouse https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-Optical-x/dp/B00BIFNTMC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1545606996&sr=8-3&keywords=anker++vertical+mouse.
It’s not feature-rich but it has a good form factor and it’s cheap. However, I did replace the switches and encoder (I was trying to replicate the free-spinning mouse wheel from Logitech’s m705 mouse, but it didn’t turn out so well). The newer Anker model’s form factor doesn’t feel right to me.

I got excited when I discovered that Logitech released a vertical mouse but, as many reviewers have stated, the thumb button placement on the Logitech mouse is not optimal for my hand. And the price of Logitech’s vertical mouse is exorbitant compared to what cheaper Logitech mice offer.

I’m curious about this. It would seem to make no sense, but after using the TB for so long, I’ve learned that there can be lots of things that people wouldn’t thing would matter, but actually do (they just might not show up on a regular keyboard with it’s separate keys and longer reaches - iow, some problems are hidden by much bigger issues that we have simply accepted for decades on regular keyboards.

So, thinking on this, yes, both typing and trackpad have your hands horizontal. So why would one bother you while the other doesn’t). I think it may have to do with how the hand movement differs. Probably too many possible differences between users, but to take one example, when I use my mouse (Logitech Performance MX) and want to move higher on the screen, a lot of that movement comes from the arm. Most of my hand is pretty motionless other than my thumb. But when using a track pad and trying to get the same result, I tend to flex my index finger more. As the index finger moves forward or back, it will raise the rest of the hand down or arch it higher.

So it may be that this - or some other small difference - just creates a problem for some people.

I don’t have a vertical mouse, but if a regular mouse doesn’t work for you, there could be other differences as well. Only way to even guess is to switch back and forth, comparing how you arm, hand and fingers move. Of course, the angle of the hand may also be a factor. My point is just that there seems to be a lot of differences in how people do things and what will bother some but not others.

It is one of the things that I felt delayed GR of the TB - more testers revealed that there were a whole lot more differences between typists than most people realized which a form factor like the TB revealed.

Yes, forearm pain reduction was my primary incentive for switching to a vertical mouse. In general, I don’t have RSI problems.

The weight of the mouse is not a factor since it is tethered to my mac on my desk. I don’t plan to port it around. My old Evoluent mouse didn’t have chrome in the thumb rest; so far - three months down the road - I prefer the chrome.

I don’t dislike the micro trackball due to function. I kind of like it. But it does not work more often than it does work. It stops working when I’m in a hurry, and I don’t like needing to clean it (when that’s possible). The ones you can’t clean like my Apple mouse gets annoying when it stops working.

So I have a Magic Mouse which I liked because I got similar function on the mouse, the advantage of a trackpad right there, but I like it a LOT less now that I have been using the SwiftPoint GT (and now the ProPoint) mouse. After using that, it’s like someone else described as “pushing a brick around my desk” (or something like that). The natural pencil grip, small form factor and super light weight makes the ProPoint my favorite mouse so far. It’s better than the GT because they got rid of the stylus and replaced it with optical tracking. Works very well. I don’t mind if the stylus is there if they can add pressure sensitivity.

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Not sure what you mean by “they got rid of the stylus and replaced it with optical tracking.” When I look at the videos of the ProPoint on their website, https://www.swiftpoint.com/products/propoint-mouse-and-presenter/, I still see the little nub/tip on the bottom right side of the ProPoint. On the SwiftPoint GT, that tip is pushed in when you tilt the mouse - and it catches on surfaces, it ruins the glide, and either the mechanism or the software/firmware in the SwiftPoint GT - or both - cause tilt motions to behave unreliably.

By “behave unreliably” I mean that the default configuration of tilt+up or tilt+down triggers at (what seems like) random times, and it’s annoying as hell in Visual Studio, where it causes all the text to suddenly zoom to different sizes, and there isn’t a menu to bring it back to exactly 100%. So if you then tilt+zoom to change the size back, after an eternity of trial-and-error, you’re lucky if you get 107% or anything close to 100%. Thanks blurry text! I’ll concentrate on coding now. Oh dang, it happened again! It sounds like a minor gripe, but if you’re trying to get stuff done, it’s a “I want to chuck that mouse out the window and have it run over by a truck” kind of moment.

Imagine my joy when, after spending all that time troubleshooting the mouse, my software, changing the configuration, etc. etc. I find that the “fix” is to buy their new one, at almost double the price. Their loyalty bonus for being a SwiftPoint GT owner, was to “tell me early” on their funding page, with pricing designed to take advantage of “RUSH, BUY ME NOW NOW NOW OR YOU’LL REGRET IT” pricing, which started at like one price and went up by like $7 each week. WTH? I thought I was buying something that was useful on its own merit and didn’t need Jedi mind trick pricing to sell? And then I recalled how much “fun” it was to figure out the SwiftPoint GT.

Even if they fixed it with the ProPoint, I suspect other SwiftPoint GT users who had as much “fun” as I did, aren’t exactly lining up to upgrade.

I wanted to add: I’m sorry I’m griping about another product on a WayTools forum. The appropriate place to gripe about the product is either privately in email to SwiftPoint (I have some emails with them already), and on THEIR forums - which don’t exist. Their “forum” is a blog-style support page with like 3 posts by SwiftPoint employees.

The videos must have been made early before the design change was available. There is no nub/tip. This is from the FAQ on SwiftPoint’s website:

What’s the difference between Swiftpoint GT, and ProPoint?

ProPoint is our third generation pen-grip mouse, with many new innovations and improvements over the GT (second gen device)…

  • It’s two devices in one, i.e. both a mouse, and an in-air presenter (with gyro technology). It also operates as an air-mouse, which is great when you need to control your media and there’s no surface to use a mouse.
  • Has an additional dedicated button (three physical buttons instead of two)
  • A new optical sensor (50% higher DPI than the GT), that gives more precision, and works on more surfaces.
  • New Gesture 2.0 technology, for panning, zooming (by combining tilt gestures with the three physical buttons).
  • New configuration software for Mac and PC.
  • New firmware for more reliable Bluetooth operation.

I have not experienced these type of problems. Mine has worked almost flawlessly. The only issues are when I don’t tilt at quite the right angle to engage the gestures, but simply resetting my tilt and trying again usually works.

If I had things suddenly changing as you describe I would dislike it as well. It would be as if the TextBlade suddenly decided to type letters on its own or shift to the green layer without my chord. Unacceptable. Have you contacted support to see if you simply have a defective mouse?

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Thanks for confirming for me that they don’t use the nub/tip any more. I genuinely count your positive experience. What I will do (once bitten, twice shy) is wait until at least another person says their ProPoint is awesome too.

I know I sound quite angry in the forums (when it comes to SwiftPoint). I assure you I did not use that tone with them. Here is the email I sent them, and their reply below.

I barely mentioned tilt gestures because when they did not work for me, I assumed it was “because I was a dummy” and not because of inherent hardware flaws. Now finding that others have issues with tilt as well, I regret spending all that time troubleshooting. If you have to ship a feature where the first thing the user has to do is disable it or reconfigure it, so that they don’t have a terrible experience - maybe that wasn’t a smart default. Vintage Apple developer guidelines tell programmers to make sensible defaults, so this isn’t a new idea.

(sent June 27, 2017)

Hi,

I own a SwiftPoint GT mouse, and mostly use it with my iPad (mini 3). In a few weeks I’ll get an iPad Pro 12.9, and use it with that instead. I mainly use it with Jump Desktop to remote into my PC and get coding done.

I noticed that the Microsoft mice with BlueTrack have no need for a mouse pad at all - they are able to track on the shiny white tables that our workplace happens to have. Actually they track just about anywhere. Would you consider using similar technology in a future model of the SwiftPoint GT mouse? Then we simply wouldn’t need any mouse pads, which would lead to a much nicer user experience.

Also, I have no need for touch gestures on an iPad, so it would be nice if I could configure the SwiftPoint GT to send, say, the 360° scroll events as found on the Apple TrackPads, Magic Mice, etc. I know that 360° doesn’t really work on Windows (I know scrolling on Windows is a bag of hurt). But it would be nice because I could use that with a Mac, and maybe even over Jump Desktop.

Third, I was wondering if it would be possible to support multiple pairings. I know that might complicate things, but it could be like, power on = pairing 1, hold down left-click while powering on = pairing 2 (maybe blink the LED a certain way to confirm that), hold down right-click while powering on = pairing 3, hold down both while powering on = pairing 4, scroll forward while powering on = pairing 5, scroll backward while powering on = pairing 6.

Why 6 pairings? Coincidentally that is the number of pairings on my WayTools TextBlade. If it turns out after general release there is a market for that (I sure hope there is - my test unit is AWESOME), then there is likely a desire by the same crowd for an ultra-portable mouse. Bonus points if you can talk with the TextBlade and jump to the same device that it is switched to.

Just a few thoughts.

Thanks for making the SwiftPoint GT! It is because I use it, and want to use it in more places, that I thought of these suggestions. It is a great product as-is.

Cheers!

Colin

Their reply, July 22, 2017:

Hi Colin,

Thank for reaching out to us. My sincere apologies for the extremely delayed response. We’re currently working through a huge amount of feedback regarding the recently released Swiftpoint Z and your query got a bit lost amongst it all.

Something similar to Microsofts Bluetrack could indeed be useful for the GT and will certainly be looked into should be revise or upgrade the GTs hardware.

How the GT’s stylus is used on iOS is determined by the app it is used in. So if you have any suggestions for how you would like it to be implemented I can only suggest you reach out to Jump Desktop.

Currently the GT can only maintain two separate pairings, one over Bluetooth and the other with the USB receiver. Unfortunately I do not believe increasing this number would be possible with the GTs currently hardware, but again thank you for the suggestion.

Please let us know if you have any for feedback or queries regarding your GT.

Kind regards,
Bryce

Swiftpoint Support Team

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Also, this sounds like nit-picking, but when they say,

How the GT’s stylus is used on iOS is determined by the app it is used in. So if you have any suggestions for how you would like it to be implemented I can only suggest you reach out to Jump Desktop.

it is either an uninformed reply, or an attempt to shift the blame.

It is uninformed because, the SwiftPoint GT cannot do 360° scrolling - it either sends horizontal scrolling or vertical scrolling, unlike the Apple mice which can send, well, 360° scroll events. So even if Jump Desktop changed their software - the mouse already filters the tilt actions, and only sends up/down or left/right, not a combination.

Since Bryce is an employee, he would have to be pretty darned naïve to not know that the mouse didn’t send 360° scroll events.

So, I did what most people do when they’re told to pound sand. I did exactly that. I didn’t buy any more from them, in spite of the numerous “marketing” emails. They accidentally A/B tested on me (i.e. send the same email with different subject line and see which one gets more opens). While I understand that marketers need to maximize results, I wish their engineering and support maximized usage instead.

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Here are a couple of pics of the bottom of the ProPoint.

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Yep, thas the same as my ProPoint. I also have the old version with the neb and right now I think I miss the nib when using the tilt as you can feel the nibs contact to know you in the right position, i miss that.

Apart from that it is much better now I have updated the driver to the latest update. Far fewer drop outs.

I have developed a feel for when I’m in the right position. I use the side of my middle finger. When the side of my finger just touches the desk, I find I have found the correct position. I actually miss the position more often with my GT and the nib. It seems like it should be easier, but somehow I find the ProPoint more consistent.

Think of it like playing a trombone. You learn through practice and muscle memory how to place the slide in just the right spot to hit a specific note. It’s the same way with learning the right tilt for the mouse.

Considering that this thread was started by WayTools to solicit feedback about what features the market would like in a mouse, I think your post is valid as it critiques implementations of existing products and this information can potentially help WayTools to better design its product.

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I can’t stop thinking what WT meant by a new paradigm. A non-mouse input device to solve all these use cases? I’ve thought a lot in the past couple of years about what kind of device might be better than a mouse (other than existing options like trackball, trackpad, etc.). I can’t come up with anything.

The mouse was a brilliant invention. We need a way to let the computer know what the focus of our next input will be and I cannot come up with anything revolutionary.

So, the phrase a new paradigm really has me intrigued!

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The mouse was a great invention - with over 50 years of popular use.

The legacy keyboard was even more dug in, with 140 years of widespread use.

We kept them because they were effective and satisfying.

So it takes a substantially different kind of thinking to improve upon such long established paradigms.

You have to distill and intensify what we love, and yet shed what we don’t like, and advance beyond it.

Users tell us we’ve actually gotten somewhere with the keyboard - a worthy advance that works better.

We aim to do the same for mice.

Leveraging what we learned from building TextBlade, a better mouse is a much smaller scope too. It’s easier and quicker to do, after GR.

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